The following questions Bill Matthes (Peter Matthes' brother and PNOK) has answered for this article:

Moonduster Chronicles: Could you please share what it was like having Pete for a brother and growing up with him?

Bill Matthes:

I was born just before WWII and Pete was born two years later. When my dad joined the Navy, my mom had a difficult time trying to meet the needs of our family. Since I was two years older, I tried to help my mom as much as I could. I took on the job of watching and caring for Pete … just trying to keep him safe and happy. In a biblical sense, I guess you could say 'I am my brother's keeper.' I think he was a very happy kid. He liked football and wrestling and made friends very easily. I always admired his honesty and easy-going nature. In high school he was one of the most popular kids in school. I moved away to go to college and I rarely saw him except during Christmas and sometimes during the summer break. He was studying biology in graduate school when he was drafted for Vietnam. I saw him for the last time just before he went to flight training school. Carl Swenlin, my brother's friend and former C130A pilot said: “Pete was a fine young man I met in my pilot training class. I particularly remember his humor and how, when there was uncertainty about making it through the course, he would smile and say, "I've got it wired." During that year we experienced the beginning of what would have been a deeper friendship, but we were both sent different ways when we graduated in 1969.”

Question:

The bio/incident information about Pete reads like so many other ones. Not a lot of difference until you get to the bottom and read your note about not accepting your brother's remains. Could you tell us about the remains and why as PNOK you believe there is not proof of the death of your brother?

Answer:

When I first heard about the excavation of the site, I was hopeful that they would find something to positively identify Pete's remains. But the excavation and identification process conducted by CIL-HI found no evidence at all that could be linked to my brother. No bones, no teeth, no clothing, no dog tags, no gun… not anything. This 'excavation and identification process' was nothing but a farce. For example, the forensic report of Dr. Rathbun states:

"The documentation of the recovered human skeletal remains illustrates that no anatomical/skeletal features could be associated with any particular individual. Although there was no conclusive duplication of elements, the minimum number of individuals represented was at least one, adult male of unknown racial ancestry."

If they can't determine racial ancestry, how can they conclude these bone fragments belong to any member of the crew? It would be just as reasonable to assume that the bones were those of a Laotian or an Australian male.

There are two other examples. The forensic report claims that a partial plate found at the excavation site belonged to Captain Brown, yet no dental records could confirm this. In fact, I talked to the Brown family at Arlington and they told me he had no partial plate. The other example is the white-gold wedding band with inscription listed in the Inventory of Artifacts. I also examined the wedding band at Arlington and there was no inscription. Was this just another error in recording or was it inscribed? If it was inscribed, what did it say? Did it indicate that it belonged to a crewmember or to someone else?

Question:

The Official Air Force Account of the incident states there were “no beepers or voice transmissions”. Could you tell us about that statement and why it is incorrect?

Answer:

At the time of the combat loss, two messages were sent from the 374TAC to the National Military Command Center Message Center at DOD. The first was sent within a few hours of the incident. The message clearly states that one BEEPER was detected. This message was marked urgent with copies to the WH/STATE/CIA/NSA and several other military intelligence groups. A second message was sent sometime later with more details. This message also clearly indicates one BEEPER was heard. I never knew about the beeper signal until I saw copies of the actual transmissions in 1994. If all eight crewmembers died in the crash, as they claim, why would the DOD lie about this? Is it possible that one or more crewmen escaped from the rear of the plane well before the crash? It was reported that the plane was aware of the 37mm anti-aircraft fire and the pilot turned due south to avoid further damage. Since the flare bombs are dropped from the wide-open rear of the plane, it would be easy for some of the crew to parachute out of the back. It is also possible that no more signals or voice transmissions were heard because the enemy was close by searching for survivors.

Question:

What evidence does the Government have to justify declaring your brother and the crew of the C130 dead?

Answer:

In my opinion they have nothing. They cannot identify any crewmember from over 700 bone and tooth fragments. They could not match serial number of any of the rusted short guns allegedly found at the crash site. They took no pictures of any remains in-place before removing them from the site. So none of the remains can even be shown to have come from the crash site. They did report finding three dog tags, but they were never tested for authenticity. They could have easily been forged as the FBI determined in the case of the brother of Dolores Apodaca – Alfond.

Actually there is more evidence to suggest that some of the crew did survive the crash. In 1993 the JTF-FA received a document in Hanoi from the North Vietnamese entitled “Downed Aircraft – Record of Enemy Aircraft Shot down from 1965 to 1975. A Vietnamese Unit called 559 kept this log or record. This Document clearly records the shoot down of a C130 aircraft using 37mm gunfire at 19:10 24 NOV 1969. The correlates exactly with the DOD account. In the '559' document the Vietnamese recorded that five pilots were killed and four short guns found. The investigative team also interviewed local residents who reported that the Vietnamese told them that six pilots had been killed in the crash

Question:

The letters and numbers GX2527 were seen in a satellite photo taken of a field near Dong Mang (Dong Vai) prison in June 1992. Can you tell us what these letters and numbers are and what they mean to a pilot?

Answer:

During the war, the military services gave many pilots who flew combat missions individual authenticator numbers (2527) to identify themselves by radio or other means in the event their airplanes were shot down or crashed. During their pre-flight training, pilots were also given Escape and Evasion (GX) signals to employ either as an evader or POW to facilitate their eventual recovery. Most pilots received training in methods of constructing these E&E symbols in survival courses, prior to assignment to Vietnam. Both E&E symbols and authenticator numbers were classified.

It was expected that these symbols would be used to attract rescuers and would be deployed in ways that would avoid ground detection and yet be visible to overhead collecting sources such as satellite photographs. In other words, it's a captured pilot's only means of sending a distress signal and only hope to be rescued.

The DIA has testified that some of the symbols were made from a combination of thickened rice paddy dike walls, shadows, burn marks in the field, trees, logs, and rice residue from stacking of harvested rice. This information is all part of the Report of the Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs (1991-1993).

Question:

How certain can we be that GX2527 is the authenticator cord for Peter Matthes and what message does this code give us?

Answer:

During the Senate Select Committee hearing, an independent consultant was brought-in to examine the GX2527 distress code for authenticity. The consultant, Colonel (Ret.) Lorenzo W. Burroughs, was the Deputy Director and head of the National Photographic Interpretation Center and pioneered satellite imagery analysis methods used today during a 40-year career for which he received the nation's highest award. His sworn testimony is in the SCC report and his finding were also made public for the first time during an NBC Dateline interview on April 27, 1993. Senator Bob Smith (Co-Chairman of the committee) was also interviewed. This is what Colonel Burroughs and Senator Smith stated about the GX2527 distress code:

DATELINE: "You're saying that in a 1992 photo...
Burroughs: "That's correct."
DATELINE: "...of a rice paddy, a field in Vietnam...
Burroughs: "That's correct."
DATELINE: "...there were two letters and four numbers?"
Burroughs: "That is correct."
DATELINE: "It's not a maybe? Maybe this is something?"
Burroughs: "Absolutely. I'm positive. Once you've seen it, you know it."
DATELINE: "Your Report says 100 percent certainty."
Burroughs: "100 percent confidence call."
DATELINE: "When was that symbol (GX 2527) made?"
Burroughs: "I would anticipate that from the shape of it, that it was not older than a year."
DATELINE: "Not older than a year?"
Burroughs: "I don't think that the signature (GX 2527) could have survived longer than, in that particular field, more than a year."
DATELINE: "And that symbol corresponds to a pilot's distress code?"
Burroughs: "Absolutely. There's no question in my mind about it."
DATELINE: "What were the two letters and four numbers?"
Burroughs: "GX, a walking X, 2527".
DATELINE: "And the 'walking X means that it has been modified in the way that only aircrews are supposed to know?"
Burroughs: "That's how they're trained and all of them are trained to do that."
DATELINE: As seen in this declassified document, Vietnam air aviators were taught not only to display letters and numbers but to alter them slightly in a way that rescuers would immediately recognize. The alterations are still considered secret enough that the Pentagon blacks them out to this day but it's clear that a walking X, for instance, was an X with some kind of attached feet to verify it as a legitimate distress code.
DATELINE: "Nobody told you to look for the number 'GX 2527'."
Burroughs: "No."
DATELINE: "And you didn't know at the time that 'GX2527' is a legitimate distress code for a particular airman?"
Burroughs: "No I did not. I did not know that it was a particular airman's authenticator code."

Dateline has confirmed that GX2527 is an authenticator code corresponding to an airman missing in action in Southeast Asia. After Colonel Burroughs told the Senate committee about finding that symbol, Senator Bob Smith looked at the photo and reached his own conclusions.

Sen. Smith: "I saw it. I'm not an expert, don't claim to be, but I saw the letters and the numbers clearly, no question about it in my mind, as clearly as I could see my own name written, I know that I saw a 'GX2527'."

The final question goes back to Colonel Burroughs:

DATELINE: "What are the chances of the symbol 'GX2527' some how sort of appearing out there naturally?"
Burroughs: "It is a--absolutely zero."

After the SCC hearing I have been able to determine that Pete did receive SERE (Survive, Evade, Resist, Escape) training in Spokane, WA. , since I talked recently with a pilot who took the training with my brother. I also know that 2527 was Pete's actual authenticator number because I saw it in his records in 1995. If you still have doubts about the authenticity of GX2527, consider this. Just assume for a minute that the North Vietnamese were able to obtain this code. Does it make any sense whatsoever for them to construct a distress signal like this to tell the whole world we have an American POW here, when they have always claimed along with out government that all POWs were returned in 1973? The obvious answer is NO! This would be political and economic suicide for Vietnam, not to mention the upheaval in DC.

Question:

What has the President, Congress and the JTF-FA done about the satellite photos and what is being done now?

Answer:

All the presidents have had access to this intelligence. And, they all have promised to provide the 'fullest possible accounting of our POW/MIAs. The reality is that all distress signal imagery remains classified TOP SECRET. Some of the presidents knew more than others, but what they attempt to do is be as little informed as possible, in other words if I don't know, you can't prove later on that I knew. Although the government always claims openness and public access to documents relating to the POW/MIA issue, if they cared enough they'd have to look. As the president of the United States, you're the commander in chief, you are the boss of the Defense Department; you can walk in there and say I want to see the satellite imagery. Unfortunately, most elected officials care more about their power and their own personal position than they do about some POWs who may have been lost. Clinton has probably done more to hurt the POW/MIA cause than any other president has. His personal agenda calls for normalization with Vietnam and that's his only concern. The Congress has lost any real interest in determining the fate of POWs left in SE Asia. For them, it's a non-issue. The JTF-FA may have had good intentions at one time, but as Colonel Millard A. Peck once said in his letter of resignation, “ the mindset to 'debunk' is alive and well.

Question:

Are you any closer to finding out what happened to your brother then you were before the authenticator codes were found in the satellite photo?

Answer:

To be honest about it, I am not. I have learned, though, how dishonest and devious our government can be and that they will stop at nothing to hide the true facts about our POWs. The Vietnam Unknown Soldier incident is a prime example of their lack of integrity and concern for the POW/MIAs and their families. Many more of our POWs could have been freed if only we had lived up to our reparation agreement at the Paris peace accords. By now, we have probably dumped more money into that region then was needed back in 1972.

Question:

You have a wealth of information on your web site about your brother, the incident and the authenticator codes. What are you continuing to do to get the answers you need to have about your brother?

Answer:

I continue to write to my elected officials expressing my concerns about their lack of action. I monitor the POW/MIA activists' websites such as National Alliance of Families, Operation Just Cause, AIIPOWMIAI, and the P.O.W. NETWORK, just to name a few. I recently sent letters to my Congressmen from my state. So far I have received no responses, as usual. I'm also trying to locate my brother's good friend and former C130 pilot who was also flying that night and heard the radio traffic concerning the anti-aircraft fire. His name is Ludwell Denny. He may have also heard whether anyone bailed out before the crash.

Question:

What can we do to help bring Pete back home?

Answer:

For those who don't know, the Congress will discontinue all DPMO operations by the year 2004. That means there will be no more ON-SITE INVESTIGATIONS, no more ANALYSIS of information, no more ARCHIVAL RESEARCH, and no more RECOVERY OF REMAINS. Without JTFFA, all of this will be discontinued. Unfortunately, it doesn't matter who the President is or will be. This is a decision that was made in the Pentagon, without consultation with or input from family organizations and their membership. The purpose of a recent study, commissioned by DPMO, called the “Mission Area Analysis (MAA)”, is to help implement the best use of money, resources and technology across the wide range of DoD's responsibilities in personnel recovery and accounting. It provides DPMO the necessary cover to end active investigations, as we know them, of all POW/MIA cases. According to the DPMO, "By the end of the year 2004, we will have moved from the way the US government conducts the business of recovery and accounting to an active program of loss prevention, immediate rescues, and rapid post-hostility accounting." All concerned citizens should immediately write their elected officials to object to this decision. I have written the following letter:

February 26, 2000
Senator Spencer Abraham
United States Senate
329 Dirksen Senate Office Building
Washington, DC 20510

Dear Senator Abraham;

I am writing this letter to express my concern over Defense Department plans to restructure its operations regarding investigations and recovery of unaccounted for servicemen from World War II, Korea, Cold War, Vietnam and the Gulf.

As currently scheduled, the Defense POW/MIA Office (DPMO) plans by year 2004 to move "from the way the US government conducts the business of recovery and accounting." This move seems consistent with their efforts to avoid the truth about American POWs last known alive. It is my opinion that investigating the fate of known Prisoners of War, such as Korean War POWs, Roger Dumas, and Richard Desautels, and Vietnam War POWs Charles Shelton, David Hrdlicka, John McDonnell, and others should not be hampered by time limitations.

The failure of DPMO to implement essential "first step" unanimous recommendations of the 1991-1992 Senate Select POW/MIA Committee illustrates their lack of sincerity in pursuing the fate of these men. Seven years have gone by while DPMO steadfastly refuses to pursue crucial distress symbols found in U.S. satellite imagery.

Clearly, the countries holding information on the fate of our men are not cooperating with U.S. investigators. To put a time limit on U.S. investigations will provide these uncooperative nations with little incentive to provide information on our POW/MIA's. All they have to do is stall. North Korea, China, Russia, and Vietnam excel at stalling.

There can be no time limit on finding the truth!

While we support gathering of information and our servicemen in the field, we cannot accept the current level of inaccuracy of information created by DPMO and CILHI (the U.S. government remains identification organization). These two organizations have been unable to correct deep flaws within their organizations, and need to be replaced with credible organizations with trustworthy leaders, supported by the POW/MIA families.

I ask that you intercede with the Department of Defense, and express displeasure at any plans to further limit investigations regarding our POW/MIAs. Additionally, I ask that you support efforts to revamp current investigative procedures to insure a full and truthful accounting of our prisoners and missing from World War II, Korea, Cold War, Vietnam and the Gulf.

Question:

How do you cope with knowing that lies and deceit are what you are getting for answers from the Government?

Answer:

Whenever I start feeling sorry for myself, think of a letter written by the late Ted W. Guy, Col. USAF. He said in a letter published by the National Alliance of Families:

On March 17, 1973, a USAF C-141 aircraft departed Hanoi bound for Clark Air Base in the Philippines. On board that aircraft were 32 POWs who were captured in South Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia, including Major Floyd Thompson, the longest held Prisoner of War. I had the honor and privilege of being the commander of the men and 66 other unknowns (men and women) captured in areas other than North Vietnam. As the aircraft passed over the coast of North Vietnam, I was summoned to the crew compartment by the aircraft's captain. He told me that Admiral Noal Gaylor (CINCPAF) and Ambassador Henry Byroade desired to speak to me on the radio. I was informed that we were among those captured about whom very little or nothing was known. Several of us had been declared killed in action and one, a Marine, had actually been buried. The Admiral and Ambassador asked me, as the Senior Ranking Officer of the group, if I would say a few words on our arrival a Clark. With these thoughts in mind, I said the following upon landing:

"FOR MANY, MANY YEARS WE HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT OUR DIGNITY, OUR HONOR, AND OUR LOVE OF OUR COUNTRY. TODAY WE ARE HOME WITH OUR DIGNITY, HONOR AND LOVE OF COUNTRY BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO ALSO LOVE YOUR COUNTRY VERY, VERY, MUCH."

Until the summer of 1990, I firmly believed that we were the last of the POWs captured during the Vietnam War to come home. My beliefs were that all those captured and alive had been released and that the rest of the missing were dead. No one else was coming home. During the fall of 1990, for a number of reasons, I changed my mind drastically--180 degrees worth. Over the next several years, bits and pieces of information from various archives and congressional hearings revealed that men were left behind (abandoned) and confirmations repeatedly surfaced that men were alive after 1975. Enough evidence was available that convinced me that there was a good possibility that some could still be alive today.

Today, I believe that many were left behind and there is a strong possibility that some still wait who continue to think about their dignity, their honor and their love of their country. Because they continue to love their country, don't you think they are wondering why they remain behind?

Ted W. Guy
Col. USAF (RET)
Commander Laos, Cambodia and South Vietnam POWs

Question:

Do you know of any of the political candidates who have expressed an interest in the POW/MIA(s) and of any promise to work to bring them all back home?

Answer:

Unfortunately, I do not. I think George Bush might be interested if we could convince him that this issue could help him in his campaign. He is basically a Washington outsider, so he could not be connected easily with any cover up. On the other hand Gore would certainly have to be defensive in this area. The Moonduster Chronicles has mentioned that we have at least 1.5 million supporters around the country. If we could start a petition drive in which we state our objectives and present this to him with let's say a million signatures and some solid ammunition to use against Gore; he might at least challenge Gore with this on national TV debates. With some luck, the news media might pick-up on this and make a campaign issue out of it.

Question:

Do you have any comments or information that you want to share?

Answer:

Although I may never know my brother's fate in my lifetime, I believe there are enough concerned citizens who will eventually uncover the truth. Individuals must be united to bring this issue back into the news media. Public opinion is the only thing politicians understand and respond to. Their main objectives have been and always will be to get reelected.

Bill Matthes' web site for his brother Peter Matthes can be found at:

Peter Matthes--GX2527--Left In Vietnam

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